MSO_Admin

Good evening, everyone!

LarryK

Hello all, Larry Kaufman here.

Manx

Hello, Larry!

blot

Hi, Larry!

MSO_Admin

We're very pleased and proud to have Larry Kaufman as our star guest here tonight. Larry is without doubt the strongest shogi player in the West ever and we're honoured that he has given us his time.

LarryK

Thank you.

MSO_Admin

So who would like to ask the first question, please?

blot

I found on shogi-l archive, nov 11, 1999, you wrote that you have a plan to write a handicap book with Mr. Shoshi - any new info about that? Thanks!

LarryK

Mr. Shoshi published his handicap book in Japanese recently. I will be using it as part of the basis of my series on the MSO site.

blot

Do you have a plan to publish a book (or booklet) ?

LarryK

When the MSO series is done, I might look into making a book out of it.

blot

Thanks!

TheMazeMan

Larry, I've never played the Japanese variation, only the American, and I'm NOT that good (can't think ahead). What is the difference between American and Japanese chess?

LarryK

I didn't understand the earlier question about American/Japanese.

MSO_Admin

MazeMan, please would you be a little more specific?

TheMazeMan

I was, as a non shogi player, curious about the difference between Shogi and regular chess.

LarryK

Oh, now I understand. Shogi has one big advantage; almost no draws. Also it is more complex; pro play is much further from perfection in shogi and computers are much further from mastering it.

Astarte

How do you look upon shogi variants? (Chu, Tenjiku and so on.)

LarryK

The variant I know most about is Chu (Middle) shogi. I think it was a very good game, but it is almost extinct in Japan now. For me it's interesting to play games at which there are very strong players.

Astarte

They are interesting for AI.

Manx

Larry - you must have come across of lot of chess players who have never played Shogi and are a bit suspicious of it - any suggestions how to overcome this and get people interested?

LarryK

I used to have good success when I played it at clubs and taught it. If the teacher is a strong chess master, he has much more credibility in chess clubs.

blot

I am a beginner without any real opponents. What do you think about using a computer program as an opponent; can it ruin my style, teach me bad habits that I can't get rid of later and so on? What's the computer program that you recommend for playing? Thanks!

LarryK

It's true that computer programs have some bad "habits", but so do many human novices! One very strong program is AI Shogi 2000, but there is no English manual yet.

blot

So, it's not a bad idea to "master" shogi with computer opponent?

LarryK

I think it's the most practical solution for many, but also play on a server like ShogiDojo is great.

Astarte

What do you think about the level of Western shogi?

LarryK

There is an enormous range; generally, we're far behind Japan. Only a few Westerners are 4 Dan or better, against thousands in Japan.

Astarte

Would Japanese players be interested in playing tournaments with western players?

LarryK

Well, they do, for example the recent "World Championship" in NY state.

Astarte

Sort of like regular chess.

LarryK

A few westerners have played in major Japanese tournaments. Also there was the "Shogi Forum" event last year in Tokyo.

Astarte

But they are not allowed to play in a tournament with pros; I understand that western players have a low level, but anyway.

LarryK

There are some pro events open to some amateurs; if a westerner won the Amateur Ryu-O he would be invited to the pro event.

Astarte

Ah, that is a nice way of promoting shogi in the west. I think a lot of westerners have the chance if they put their mind to it.

Alan

How much stronger are the professional players?

LarryK

In my opinion my own chances in an even game with a "weak" pro are about 10%. If a chess grandmaster gave up chess and studied shogi for years, he might reach pro level.

Manx

I read somewhere that if someone hasn't been taught Go by the time they're 9 or 10 years old they'll never become a pro - does the same apply in Shogi?

LarryK

Well it's the usual rule for shogi and go that you must learn young, but I believe it might not apply to a western chess GM.

Astarte

Shogi is very appealing for a talented player; you don't have to learn a lot of theory! In the beginning, I mean.

LarryK

There is a lot of opening theory in shogi, but there's more chance of winning from a bad opening than in chess.

Astarte

I have the IM title in chess, but I think it is very easy to be richly rewarded on talent in shogi.

blot

What's, as per your opinion, the bast way to improve? Maybe solving tsumeshogi; can you recommend some tsumeshogi books?

LarryK

I believe the best way to learn shogi is by playing handicap games with a stronger player, but that option isn't available to everyone. So studying tsume is helpful (I think Hisshi problems are even better).

blot

What are Hisshi problems?

LarryK

Hisshi is a mate in which every move need not be check, but each move must at least threaten tsume.

Astarte

I think shogi will transform into a more westernly oriented approach due to the Internet.

LarryK

So far I'm the only IM or GM to have put in the effort to become strong in shogi, but I hope others will do so too.

Alan

What do you mean by a Westernly approach?

LarryK

Yes, the internet has great potential for spreading shogi.

Astarte

I think the Fischer idea is excellent for shogi, you can keep some time (more logical).

LarryK

Are you talking about increment?

Astarte

Yes. The buoyomi idea is Stone Age.

LarryK

Actually, I invented increment (not Fischer!) originally for use in shogi!

Astarte

Fantastic, we seem to think alike!

LarryK

The Micromate Digital chess clock implemented it around 1980 and credited me as the inventor!

Astarte

Shogi is complicated, it needs a better form than byoyomi.

LarryK

In pro events, they don't use byoyomi as you think of it, but something more like "time delay". The seconds of each move don't count, only the minutes, so it's like "delay".

Manx

On the subject of internet Shogi - does the ShogiDojo have provision for non-Japanese speakers?

LarryK

Yes, ShogiDojo has English, but not all the features.

Astarte

I don't like the short time limit in the west (1 hour). It is a waste of time, it would be nice to play normal tournament some time where you have at least 3 hours for a game.

LarryK

But time limits of 30' to 1 hour are normal in Japanese Amateur events too. I think the idea is that even 1000 hours won't really be enough, so why pretend? You need to play hundreds of games to get strong, and that won't happen if you play one game a day in tournaments. But I would like to play a long game against a strong player sometimes.

Astarte

Well, my idea is to get some nice feeling from the games; they have to be played in a natural way. I love to play some fast poker, for instance... ;-)

MSO_Admin

An old go adage is that you are expected to play a thousand games to reach shodan. How strong could a beginner be after 1000 games against the best opposition he can find at his own level?

LarryK

It depends greatly on his chess skill (if any). Some very strong chessplayers have reached 1 dan after only a few dozen games, but weak chessplayers may never make shodan.

Manx

Seems a bit different to Go where I think experience counts a lot against genius.

momo

Do you have any ideas how to get chessplayers to play shogi regularly - strong chessplayers?

LarryK

They need the example of other chessmasters playing shogi, they need to see that there are tournaments, and they need to see real prizes.

MSO_Admin

And of course we have some very real prizes in the Shogi festival at Mind Sports Olympiad 4!

Astarte

Sorry to be pedantic, but jishogi is also unnatural.

LarryK

I think shogi is midway between chess and go in many aspects. Yes, jishogi is a flaw, but at least it is resolved by counting points.

Astarte

You can promote everything, and attack from behind, very slowly.

LarryK

No, normally once you've entered the king and protected it, no one will ever mate; you must win by points.

Astarte

That would be nice to investigate with some kind of endgame program in the future.

blot

I am a go player, can you explain what you mean by saying that shogi is midway between chess and go? Thanks!

LarryK

It has much of the global feel of go, and many of the same terms like tesugi etc. apply, but at heart it is still a chess variant.

Manx

Do you play Go much?

LarryK

I used to play Go quite a bit, reaching 3 Dan, but although it's a great game it doesn't really suit me, so I don't play so much now.

MSO_Admin

Please can we return to a question which was sent by e-mail earlier: who's the favourite to win the European Shogi Championship at MSO 4?

LarryK

If you mean the closed event (Europeans only) then it's probably a toss-up between Van Oosten and Stephen Lamb. If you mean the open event, then at least three Japanese are expected who are stronger than I am.

Manx

How strong are they, out of curiosity?

LarryK

Van Oosten and Lamb are both "average" 4 Dans.

Manx

I don't fancy my chances then!

momo1

What has to happen for a westerner to be able to make the pro grade? I don't mean rules; I mean circumstances. How can we get a western shogi player as good as the best western go players?

LarryK

Basically, some kid must reach 4 Dan by about age 15. So we need to have many kids playing shogi in the west.

blot

You touched on something that I was thinking of when you wrote "go doesn't suit me", Is it personality type or something else that suits more one game than another? (I prefer go.)

LarryK

I think it has to do mostly with whether you like to calculate variations. I'm good at that, so chess and shogi suit me.

blot

Do you mean to suggest that go is more "straightforward"?

LarryK

Go requires different abilities than tree searching; that's why computers are still weak at it.

Alan

When did you decide to learn shogi, and why?

LarryK

I learned in 1977, in Florida. I was "forced" to learn by a chess friend; I learned only to humor him!

Manx

How strong is the strongest Shogi programme?

LarryK

Amateur 4 Dan, though that isn't official. But programs are weak in the early stages, but pro level in the ending.

Manx

Again half-way between Go and chess.

LarryK

Yes, another of many such examples.

Astarte

Do you know some Japanese books about the game?

LarryK

Of course, I have many, but can't read too much Japanese.

Astarte

I guess there must be a lot of nice games played in the old days. Can you recommend something? I guess they are not possible to order through Amazon?

LarryK

As for Japanese books, I learned much from "Shogi Taikan" by Kimura, but I don't know how to get it.

blot

I think that shogi is facing now what go faced 50 years ago. Also, I think that the problem is that Japanese consider shogi a real Japanese invention and they are more strict with pieces, boards, notation - IMHO, that's one of the reasons why shogi is coming slowly to the west.

LarryK

Yes, shogi is harder to spread in the west than Go because of the Japanese writing. There are westernized sets, but they aren't seen too often.

momo1

It was intersting that Habu thought westernizing the pieces was fine for popularizing shogi.

LarryK

Yes, I don't think the Japanese object to that; why should Shogi not be international (free of any language bias)?

blot

Astarte, if you are in the USA, you can order Japanese books from Kinokynia stores, they have Japanese shogi books and magazines.

Astarte

I love essays about games, also philosophy. I thought that maybe masters of old wrote books like that about shogi, a bit like old tournament chess books.

TheMazeMan

Leggett and Fairbairn are the only two authors with Shogi books on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804819033/recommendations

Manx

I think its also because Go attracts players who like games but dislike chess - trying to market another chess "variant" is more difficult.

blot

I found a book by Ohara, Japanese Chess, published 1953.

momo1

I think chessplayers would play more shogi if there were more books.

LarryK

In my opinion Tony Hosking's "The Art of Shogi" is the best English shogi book.

blot

Nobody mentioned that anywhere on shogi sites.

Astarte

I am in Sweden, but I normally order books for my library through Amazon.

momo1

The Japan centre in london used to have a lot of shogi books.

LarryK

Perhaps Hosking's book is mostly sold directly by him, so not so easy to find.

blot

Mr. Kaufman, what do you think about Hodges's old magazines, are they good for improving? Are they worth their price?

LarryK

Very good; Hodges's magazine is mostly how I learned.

blot

So, start from #2 and by #70, you will be shodan :))

momo1

They are very good.

blot

I am thinking of ordering them, thanks for the information!

Manx

Can I also point out that most are a pound each - hardly likely to break the bank!

LarryK

I don't know what he's charging now, but the total collection of his magazines is an overwhelming collection of shogi knowledge. Very high quality (ignoring my own articles)!

Astarte

I have Hosking's book, it is good in the early stage.

LarryK

What do you mean by "early stage"?

Astarte

I am now looking for something, where a pro writes about the game from a distance, sort of like a samurai if you understand what I mean.

momo1

How important is the opening in shogi? How much theory does one need to know compared to similar levels in chess?

LarryK

The opening in shogi is very important and has much theory, but unless you are pro level it is easy to get by with general understanding, not specific variations.

momo1

What if a high kyu player is well learned in the opening and meets an opponent of similar strength who is not? Or how about low dan players?

LarryK

Knowing the openings well is probably worth a rank or so.

Scriblerus

Who are the Shogi players to watch out for in the next 5-10 years? Is there a big pool of new stars talent?

LarryK

There is one potential shogi superstar, named Watanabe. He just became a professional at 15.

Astarte

Can you recommend a book to learn Japanese (with the shogi angle)?

momo1

You should go to Hans Geun's list of shogi terms on the net.

LarryK

There are some bilingual shogi books by Aono which might help learn "shogi Japanese".

momo1

For terms, see http://www.etl.go.jp:8080/etl/suiron/~grimberg/SHOGI/vocab.html

blot

But they are out of print.

Astarte

I mean, "Art of shogi" is a nice illustration of openings with accompanying games.

Manx

You can get copies from George Hodges, PO Box 77, Bromley, Kent - I ordered them on Friday!

Astarte

To develop, you need some deep analysis of middle game positions from pro games.

blot

25 pounds for "Better moves" is little bit overpriced for a photocopy.

LarryK

Hodges's magazine plus "Art of Shogi" is enough for anyone in the west to become very strong.

blot

When you say "very strong", do you mean to become dan player or 1-2 kyu?

LarryK

I mean 4 Dan!

blot

Oops :)

Scriblerus

What stage of development is Women's Shogi at?

LarryK

So far women in shogi are much weaker than their counterparts in chess and go.

Astarte

I played a russian girl, Novikova, in Stockholm.

LarryK

Yes, we know Irina Novikova well as she lived in the USA for a while. She is perhaps shodan level.

Astarte

She lives in St Petersburg now. She is young, so maybe....

Manx

Any idea why? Why women are weaker I mean, why not she was born in 1985!

LarryK

We used to wonder why women were not good at chess, until Judith Polgar came along. Probably if more women played shogi, some would be strong.

Manx

But why do more women play Go than Shogi?

LarryK

I think women are not so fond of calculating, and Go is more "right brained" than shogi.

blot

It's easier to learn; later they are hooked! :)

Astarte

I have played many different games; poker is the game where I have some fear of female players in general.

GeorgeF

Hi Larry. Can you explain about you former semi-pro shogi teacher? How helpful was he to your development?

LarryK

I was already at least 4 Dan when I met him. But getting to play many games with such a strong player certainly helped. Unfortunately he died very young almost a decade ago.

GeorgeF

Getting a pro to come to live in the USA would be a good way to create stronger players, don't you think?

LarryK

If a pro moved here for the purpose of teaching shogi, it would be very helpful, but someone would have to back him.

Astarte

What is your impression of pro shogi players, as characters I mean?

LarryK

Almost all of the shogi pros I've met have been very likeable and interesting, but I probably wouldn't have been introduced to any that weren't so nice.

Astarte

Hee hee.....

momo1

No stories about disreputable shogi pros...?

Manx

Or Kasparov-style "board-tipping" incidents?

LarryK

Well, here's a story about a man named Koike, now deceased. He was an unofficial pro, and won the amateur Meijin title twice in a row. He was so strong that he was considered the equal of the average official pro. So he tried to become an official pro, without going through the Shoreikai, because he was too old for that. Based on his strength, the feeling was that he must be accepted. However it was discovered that he had misappropriated money that was intented for some shogi purpose (school I think), so he was turned down. Bitter about that, he died very young. Now the Shogi Renmei sells a book of Koike's games!

MSO_Admin

:-) Any other people who the shogi world would prefer to forget?

LarryK

Many people dislike some shogi pro or another for some specific thing they did, but their total legacy was usually favorable. For example, Oyama had some enemies, partly due to his perceived mistreatment of archrival Masuda, but overall Oyama was a great man in shogi.

Astarte

I spoke with Aono when he visited Stockholm, I liked his distance to the game. We went to Bach's "St Matthew's Passion" together. Quite a memory for me. He gave a handicapped simultaneous display wearing a kimono; good PR, but our shogi level is low.

LarryK

Aono was the very first Pro I played, nearly twenty years ago. I think the game, in Paris, was the first game between Pro and Westerner outside Japan.

Astarte

He seems to enjoy travel a lot.

Astarte

I read his books about shogi openings, very enjoyable!

Manx

Sorry, folks, I've got to go. Larry, it's been a pleasure - thank you.

blot

What's the best path, when you're just beginning, for improving - tsumeshogi, nisshi, replaying pro games, something else...?

LarryK

To improve in shogi, you should have a balanced approach. That means some play, some replay of Pro games, some opening study, some tsume, some Hisshi. Doing only one or two of those things too much isn't good.

blot

Who is the pro whose games are most suitable for beginners to replay?

LarryK

Good question, but hard to answer. I might suggest Oyama, but that reflects a bias in favor of his style.

blot

So, recommend a couple of them! :)

LarryK

In my opinion a beginner should study handicap games first, they are much easier to understand.

Astarte

I think Grimbergen is doing a great job, posting games from Shukan Shogi on the Shogi list. Each game is such an adventure.

MSO_Admin

If you could play one game against any current pro, which one would you choose?

LarryK

Well, I guess I'd like to play Habu, as he is pretty clearly the strongest; no offense to Maruyama Meijin, whom I consider #2. My favorite pro opponent was Hanamura 9 Dan, but he died some years ago.

Astarte

I have the feeling, though, that shogi has the same disadvantage that pro chess has.

LarryK

Namely?

Astarte

If you improve a lot, I mean; you invest you soul in it, and end up like Hamlet.

momo1

Did you mean that Oyama is your favorite player, or one of your favorites?

LarryK

Yes, I believe I try (not very successfully) to emulate Oyama's style.

blot

Mr. Kaufman, you said that best way for beginner is to study handicap games - where I can find games and atricles? In Hodges's magazines?

LarryK

There are many in Hodges's magazine. Also Mr. Iida (ex-Pro) published two books of his handicap games, one in English and one in Japanese. There are also a few in Hosking's book.

momo1

In english? Where?

blot

English book? Where can I find it and what's the title?

LarryK

I don't know where to order it, hold on and I'll get you the title...

blot

Check the publisher information also! :)

LarryK

"Shogi in Europe" by Hiroyuki Iida, published by The Japanese Shogi Association.

blot

Is it written in english, or billingual?

LarryK

English.

blot

What year was it published? I mean, if it is new, maybe it's possible to order it.

LarryK

The year is 1993.

blot

Mr. Kaufman, what's the main topic of the book? Is it European shogi?

momo1

Why is it titled "Shogi in Europe"?

LarryK

Handicap games between Mr. Iida and European players.

momo1

Ah.

blot

Are the games with comments? I know that i am annoying, sorry! :)

LarryK

Of course with comments.

blot

I have never seen any books of shogi games, stupid questions are natural for me! :)

LarryK

No problem!

MSO_Admin

Larry, you are also still a very accomplished (Western) chess player. You have said that the technique of studying handicap games will help shogi students; would it likewise help chess students in their efforts?

LarryK

Actually I teach chess professionally now, and I do teach using handicaps! But it's not as clearly helpful as with shogi, because it mostly teaches simplifying to win when ahead in material.

momo1

Do you regret not learning shogi before chess? :-) That is, not having had more time to spend on shogi?

LarryK

I do wish I had learned shogi earlier; I spent a great deal of time on it in the 1980's, but I think I would have become a Pro if I'd learned at age 12 or so.

blot

I've seen some info about a tsumeshogi program on the Oxford Games web site, a couple of days ago, which will be relesaed soon. By the way, what do you think about their shogi professional program?

LarryK

I believe the shogi program you are asking about is "Shotest"; I think it's about 3 Dan level. I beat it rather easily giving two piece handicap last year (!) but I know it's not fair to judge by one game.

Astarte

What do you think of Habu's western chess skill? He played in an open in Chicago recently.

LarryK

Habu earned a US Chess Federation provisional rating of 2345 (about FIDE 2300); I think that sounds about right from all accounts. Moriuchi, another top Shogi Pro, got a USCF rating around 2300. There's a funny story about that; Moriuchi drew a winning rook and pawn ending against the very strong IM Jack Peters; afterwards he said he had never before played a rook and pawn ending!

Astarte

Did Moriuchi have the sole rook?

LarryK

Each side had several pawns. It's so funny because rook and pawn endings are so common; it means Moriuchi got 2300 rating with almost no chess experience!

Astarte

Maybe there is a connection to aggressiveness; you have to be aggressive in rook endings, which should suit shogi players.

LarryK

Shogi players are all very aggressive; as a chess player my shogi is much less aggressive than average.

Astarte

He must have a fantastic board game talent.

LarryK

It shows that shogi and chess talent are closely related.

Astarte

Yes, I have the same feeling!

LarryK

Years ago, when we had only Americans in the D.C. shogi club, our shogi rating list looked almost the same as the chess rating list of the same players!

momo1

Sorry - your chess or your shogi is less aggressive?

Astarte

This is quite stimulating; combined with play on ShogiDojo, we have quite a forum for the game on the net.

LarryK

My shogi is less aggressive than average, due to the chess influence. However, my chess became more aggressive when I learned shogi, and that's when I earned my IM title in chess.

momo1

Than the average... than the average shogi player, rather than the average chess-shogi player?

LarryK

My shogi is less aggressive than the average Japanese shogi player.

Astarte

I have the opposite experience, after I started to play shogi, my over-the-board chess has deteriorated.

LarryK

Well, in my case I learned shogi during an interval when I had given up chess, and when I returned to chess at first my play was poor. But very soon I reached new heights and the IM norms came easily.

Astarte

I have a crazy idea to go for a chess-shogi-poker tour, but fortunately my wiser self is stopping me!

MSO_Admin

Sounds like you'd enjoy yourself at the MSO, Astarte!

Astarte

Yes, I have to consider that! However, you're not allowed to play poker for money in London, are you?

MSO_Admin

Private poker games for money are legal, but tournaments cannot offer cash prizes except when they are held at casinos.

LarryK

I also used to play Shang-Chi, once playing a game on NY TV with the Champion of China, but I haven't played in years now.

momo1

How do you rank xiangqi compared to shogi and chess?

LarryK

I think objectively xiangqi is on a par with chess; it's much more dynamic, but suffers from the drawback that the endings tend to be drawish. If the bishop were like the Korean bishop it would be much less drawish. So far, shogi (and variants like Chu shogi) are the only traditional chess games without a major draw problem.

MSO_Admin

Do you have much interest in changgi, Korean chess? My spelling may be incorrect there...

LarryK

I played it a few times, once in Korea where I beat a street gambler, much to his shock! But I don't have the feeling that it has so much popularity in Korea as Shogi and Xiangqi have in their home countries.

Astarte

Thanks for the chat, Larry! Good luck with your shogi, everybody!

blot

Larry, many thanks for your patience and answers.

LarryK

Well it's been interesting chatting with all of you. I hope I helped you. Another question is fine.

blot

As you said, you don't know Japanese, so how you are using japanese shogi books? I can find my way in tsumego books and I suppose it's same in tsumeshogi, but how do you cope with openings, handicap games and so on?

LarryK

Of course I've learned some "Shogi Japanese", but mostly I play thru the games or variations and get by with a few simple phrases (things like "equal game"). If my Japanese were good I would be a stronger shogi player, I'm sure.

momo1

I have a question; the MSO interview with habu is continuing - what question(s) would you like to ask him?

LarryK

Actually, I had the chance to speak to Habu last year (his English is not bad) so I've already asked him questions!

MSO_Admin

Larry, are there any final comments which you would like to make?

LarryK

I'd just like to encourage everyone to try their hand at shogi, don't be discouraged by many losses, don't be shy about asking for handicaps from stronger players, and try internet play.

MSO_Admin

OK, thanks very much for some extremely interesting questions. We're very grateful to Mr. Larry Kaufman for taking the time and trouble to answer them all.

LarryK

Glad to be of help. So long everyone!

MSO_Admin

If you've enjoyed this session, you'll probably enjoy our interview with living shogi legend Habu. You can get to it at http://www.msoworld.com/mindzine/news/iview/habuonhabu.html - and you'll enjoy attending the Mind Sports Olympiad, which features the European Shogi Championships and a shogi festival around it. You might well also enjoy playing shogi online at no charge on our site or any of the other 100+ games that we offer, as well as free $500 prize contests.

Our message boards carry on strongly too; please sign the petition for the Millennium of the Mind and the Century of the Brain.

Thanks again to Larry Kaufman.

Our next brain star interview will be on Sunday 13th August; it will star Michael Crane, the president of the British Isles Backgammon Association. For MSO Worldwide, this is Chris Dickson signing out.

Good night!