chmeee

Hello Kerry! This is David Bush.

MSO_Admin

Hi, Kerry! Thanks very much for turning up.

MSO_MazeMan

I wanted to make sure at least one of us made it. Glad that two did.

chmeee

You never know when we might get rowdy :-)

MSO_MazeMan

Do you mean it might take two of us to control you, David?

chmeee

Oh, wait... full moon was LAST night. :-)

MSO_Admin

Ladies and gentlemen, we're very happy to have Kerry Handscomb here as our chat guest today. Kerry has made an excellent start with Abstract Games magazine and we all look forward to seeing how it progresses. Kerry, would you like to make an opening statement at all?

Kerry

I've just been working on a couple of articles for the next issue - Epaminondas and Phutball.

MSO_Admin

They sound interesting; please tell us more to whet our appetites!

chmeee

Phutball is way cool, or so it seems from what little I know.

Kerry

Well, what can I say about the magazine: it's been a blast so far. Everybody has been so suportive.

Jochum

How many subscribers do you have up to now?

Kerry

About 300 issue of the last magazine were distributed. The number of subscribers is increasing steadily, although it's not a flood.

Jochum

How many do you need to keep the magazine going?

Kerry

I'm not certain - it depends on advertisers, but we are well ahead of where I expected to be by this time.

Jochum

Is it true that you or any writers make absolutely no money out of it?

Kerry

The main priority is to expand the readership as fast as possible in the first year.

chmeee

Will you be advertising, yourself, Kerry? Maybe put an ad in Chess Life?

Kerry

I don't expect to make any money. That's not the motivation. Quite frankly, I love doing this - I love the games and what I'm trying to do is create the type of magazine I always wanted to read.

Jochum

I will be writing an article about Abstract Games in our next Shogi magazine!!!!

Kerry

I hope we get a good review, Jochum!

Jochum

You will, but we do not have more than 80 readers....

MSO_Admin

Which games magazines in the past have been closest to how you envision Abstract Games to be in the future?

Kerry

Games & Puzzles, definitely. Many game players look back upon the publishing period of G&P as a golden age.

Rolgan

Yes, definitely, G&P.

Kerry

I strongly believe there has to be a market for a specialised print magazine on abstract games.

MSO_Admin

Many modern proprietary games are criticised on being very abstract games with only a veneer of theme. Do you intend to include these as well in the future, or will you be sticking to purely themeless abstracts?

Kerry

I can understand why publishers put a "veneer of theme" on the game - to make the potential market bigger, but I think they miss much of the potential elegance of the games in this way. I prefer pure abstracts, but I wouldn't rule anything out.

MSO_Admin

If memory serves me correctly (I'm taking a chance by asking this!), all the games in the first two issues have been for exactly two players. Do you have a preference for exactly-two-player games?

Kerry

Yes,that's right. It's not a personal preference, but rather the type of game we want to concentrate on works best for two players generally. Three is very difficult to create a balanced game. Four is possible.

Jochum

What do you think of four player partner games?

Kerry

Quite possible. I've been meaning to get together four players for Feudal or Ploy one of these days.

Jochum

Have you tried Four Handed Shogi?

Kerry

No, I haven't. Is it good?

Jochum

Yes!

Kerry

Is it described in ECV?

MSO_Admin

(the Encyclopedia of Chess Variants, presumably)

Jochum

I am not sure. I can check that!

Kerry

Unfortunately I don't get much time to actually play the game we write about! One of the games I really want to play soon is Phutball. It's an amazing concept.

chmeee

John Conway's invention, yes?

MSO_MazeMan

I hope that's something we get to try at MSO4.

Kerry

That's right. It's very interesting because both players own all the pieces.

cjr2000

I agree, it's a beautiful game.

Jochum

There are some other games I would like to see at the MSO4 from Abstrct Games! Like Trax or Bashne.

cjr2000

Trax is a great game :)

chmeee

cjr is very strong at Trax.

cjr2000

You should try it online if you haven't already.

Kerry

I hope to find space to put a second Bashne article in the next issue.

Jochum

Great!!

Rolgan

I remember that being one of the things that first hit you about Shogi - the owning of all the pieces. Is that one of the things that you find interesting about games the way that all the pieces are available to both players?

Kerry

It's difficult to compare shogi with phutball. I don't think it's this factor in common that is why I like both. With this small sample of people, what would you like to see us write about?

Rolgan

From a personal point of view I would like to see reviews of games that I have not seen before. So I can see what's new.

MSO_GR

Hello Kerry...Gareth (scrabble, backgammon and cards) here.

MSO_Admin

Have people played Zertz, the new game in the Gipf project series yet?

MSO_GR

Not yet, Chris.

Rolgan

How can we get hold of Abstract Games over here in the UK?

Kerry

You have to order it from us. The distribution method is by mail to subscribers.

MSO_MazeMan

I'd like information on subscribing, of course. I'm in the U.S.

Jochum

I think it is a good idea to show many unknown games and then decide by readers response which are worth going more into. As you do it right now....

Kerry

All necessary information is on our website.

chmeee

www.abstractgamesmagazine.com, right?

Kerry

That's right. Thanks, David!

Rolgan

As a point of interest, do you prefer the older games e.g. Go, Chess to the newer ones? Or vice versa?

Kerry

We're going to start a series on Grand Chess in the next issue (probably) and then when Mike Sandeman's series on Kyoto Shogi finishes I want to cover Wa Shogi.

MSO_GR

A balance of old and new is nice I find; always interested in new but spend many hours on tried and tested.

Kerry

The older ones tend to be better known. We hope to provide a forum for the lesser known games.

chmeee

Like Universe...? :-)

Jochum

Why Wa shogi? Did any readers prefer that over Chu shogi?

Kerry

It's not decided yet -- Wa or Chu. Chu is difficult to cover adequately. How to go beyond MSM?

Jochum

True, but who of your readers knows MSM? Do you know what your readers play? Shogi? Chess?

Rolgan

Hey, take pity on us newbies; what is MSM?

chmeee

Massive Shogi Monster, the largest variant :-)

Jochum

Middle Shogi Manual. Middle Shogi is Chu Shogi.

Kerry

Yes, Universe is in the wings! Next issue's great forgotten game is Epaminondas. Robert Abbott, the inventor has given us some excellent puzzles. MSM is Middle Shogi Manual. Sorry, my typing with four fingers at most is not so fast so I tend to abbreviate.

Rolgan

Wow, Epaminondas. Its been a long time since I crossed swords with you over that, Kerry!

Kerry

Rolgan: Yes, Epaminondas is a beautiful game. Wayne Schmittberger's opinion is that Wa is one of the most interesting chess-type games.

Rolgan

What was his reasoning for saying that?

Kerry

My guess is the unusual pieces and potential for Shog-like endgame situations. And, of course, the potential for strategic invention is tremendous.

Rolgan

Isn't that just down to the huge(ish) number of pieces on the board (I'm sort of playing Devil's advocate here)?

chmeee

How big is a Wa Shogi board?

Kerry

Wa is 11x11, but the number of pieces isn't so great.

Rolgan

Sorry, showing my ignorance there. How many pieces, so I can get an idea?

Kerry

Let's see, it is 52 pieces, so there is a low piece density, but of course the drops make a big difference. Wa is the biggest game played with drops.

Rolgan

Hmmm. 26 a side with none being permanently removed. Seems huge to those of us used to chess, with a constantly reducing number of pieces!

cjr2000

Maybe I just don't know Shogi well enough, but is Shogi really an innovation for those who know chess compared to all completely original and new games out there?

chmeee

Shogi is a cousin of chess, older I think.

cjr2000

Yes, i thought so too, but I mean play-wise.

chmeee

I would call it very different play-wise, but I don't know it very well either.

Rolgan

At least with a game that's a bit familiar, you can concentrate on the strategy rather than worrying about the details of the way the game is played! Just my 2 cents worth.

Kerry

Shogi dates back to the seventeenth century, but some of the variants are older than that. Chu Shogi, surely one of the world's greatest games, dates back to the thirteenth century.

chmeee

Do many Japanese people play these Shogi variants?

Kerry

No. Even Chu is almost unknown in Japan now. Minishogi has a very small following.

Jochum

Kerry, do you know what the major games are that your readers play?

Kerry

The readers are a varied group. I would guess that LOA and Shogi and the variants are the most popular.

Rolgan

Where can I find the rules to these variants? On-line, I mean!

Kerry

Steve Evans' site is very good for rules, etc.

Jochum

Or Roger Hare's site: http://www.ed.ac.uk/~rjhare/shogi/intro.html#variants.

Kerry

Thanks Jochum!

Rolgan

How easy is it to find people to play these games against? Can you find them on the Net? If so where?

chmeee

Hex and Trax have realtime servers.

Kerry

Richard's server is one of the best places to play most of the games we will be covering.

cjr2000

Octi is also available real-time.

chmeee

Where?

cjr2000

Trax: www.zone.com/trax, Octi: www.octi.net.

Rolgan

Thanks guys.

Kerry

As some of you may know, I lived in Japan for four years. I really appreciate the Japanese game aesthetic.

chmeee

Did any Japanese people share your interest in new abstract games? Maybe there's a market there...

Kerry

No. but what I mean is that the attitude to games is that playing them should be an aesthetic experience.

chmeee

The sound of the Go stone on wood, that sort of thing?

Rolgan

Rather than a competitive one? Rather Zen wouldn't you say ;-)

chmeee

Competition is an aesthetic all its own, maybe :-)

Kerry

Yes there are two types of aesthtic experience: there si the enjoyment of the game itself, the nice combinations, etc, and then there is the equipment.

chmeee

I'd like to see a Japanese version of some of my favorite games...:-)

Rolgan

Actually I totally agree. It is so much better playing Chess with nice chunky wooden pieces on a proper board, rather than on a luminous screen! And there was a definite "life" moment the first time I saw a Shogi board, with no black and white, just direction. It just made sense.

Kerry

I think game publishers are generally doing a much better job these days of producing something that is pleasant to play with than they did, say, 20 years ago.

chmeee

Still, economics dictate cost-cutting. How much would it cost to hire a Japanese craftsman to make a decent Twixt set...? :-)

Rolgan

Yep. We used to have to make do with draughts sets, or horrible plasticy pieces. Finally the publishers have realised you might like a game that has style.

Kerry

Yes, many of the games even use wooden pieces.

Rolgan

I purchased Abalone a while ago, and the pieces are great (not cheap) but worth it. Although there is a limit. I remember a 3-D circular chess game with pewter pieces that cost about 75GBP 20 years ago. Can't remember its name though, Taliesin??

chmeee

Kerry have you had any response from the people at Kadon Enterprises, gamepuzzles.com ?

Kerry

Re. Twixt, I think 3M did a pretty good job given the requirements of the game.

chmeee

3M twixt was OK but the hinges broke after years of abuse :-)

Kerry

I think Kadon manufacture some lovely games.

chmeee

I gotta get their Kaliko and Y sets some day...

MSO_Admin

The sets of Chaos Tiles and octimaonds available at www.mathpuzzle.com are very nice too.

Kerry

What are Chaos tiles?

chmeee

Wow, congruent pentagon tilings! Cool!

Rolgan

Yeah, tessalating octagons, only on Hastur.

chmeee

Oh wait - those are quadrilaterals...

Book

Does anyone make 3-d shogi pieces?

Kerry

I've never seen 3D shogi pieces. Re. magazine size, that will be the limit before mailing costs go up substantially.

chmeee

Great! I'm sure you will keep expanding.

Rolgan

Anyway back to the plot. Here in the UK the gaming market seems to be on the terminal decline (my opinion only). But you, Kerry, seem to have found a market, what is your readership currently? And what is the geographical areas? Mostly USA?

Kerry

There is so much to cover. We have so much great material that I'm thinking of expanding the next issue by eight pages instead of what we had planned, four. The readership is evenly split between the US and Europe, with maybe slightly more in the US. There are a smattering of readers in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. Some peope say that the big trend is electronic games. I think that's a shame, but I think the internet is likely to hold up the market for abstract strategy games. I bet there are more people involved in these games now than there were five years ago.

chmeee

Yes, particularly realtime servers are a big boost for abstract games, if you're on a big enough site.

Rolgan

I hope so. But it just seems to be less players around these days. Not like the old days when you could find 10 or 15 players on a Thursday night down the local youth club.

Kerry

Maybe it's because they are at home playing online.

Rolgan

Hmmm, yeah. But you lose out on the social side of it then. And it is damned hard to read someones body language through a screen.

cjr2000

I think the risk for 'normal' computer games to take the attention is greater than that of the abstract online games.

chmeee

On the other hand, i saw an interview with a strong Go player on TV, and he said he preferred the server, because people would tend to get upset playing him face to face, and on the internet he didn't have to deal with that so much.

Kerry

There will always be people interested in abstract strategy games. It is unfortunate that much of the playing experience is lost by playing online, but at least it enable people to connect.

Rolgan

Totally agree with you Kerry. There is so much more to the experience than just moving images.

MSO_MazeMan

In some cases, the online play can be an advantage. I live in a town of 500 people, and it can be hard to find opponents for some games. But I still prefer face to face play.

chmeee

Some games might be better suited for internet, like "The Sigma File" for example.

cjr

? the sigma file?

chmeee

It's a 4-player game of intrigue and deception; a lot of the game involves bluff. Unfortunately, cheating is also possible, but on the internet, the computer referee can prevent any cheating.

Kerry

A big advantage of email games is that you can do more analysis and avoid annoying mistakes more easily. The latter is important for me!

chmeee

Yes, email games can be very intense :-)

Rolgan

But half the fun, Kerry, is watching your opponents face when he realises you have forced him into making a mistake. Surely? Or am I being too personal with my gameplay.

Kerry

Sure, sure. More often than not I am on the receiving end!

Rolgan

Any way time to go, I've got to get up in the morning. See you Kerry. Keary signing off.

chmeee

See you, Rolgan!

MSO_Admin

Thanks for attending, Rolgan! We hope you enjoyed it!

chmeee

Kerry would you like to cover "educational" games such as Equations and Wff'N Proof?

Kerry

Re. educational games, I hadn't considered it. Probably not at this stage - there's so much else to cover first.

MSO_MazeMan

I do remember playing wffnproof many years ago, but I lost it five moves ago.

chmeee

Wff'N Proof is still being sold, BTW... Have you received any feedback yet on your 2nd issue?

Kerry

Re. feedback, a number of people have said issue 2 is better than issue 1. I hope issue 3 is better still.

chmee

Well that's good news, any feedback on the Hex or Twixt stuff in particular?

Kerry

One reader said that he read the Twixt article and went straight out to buy a set.

chmeee

Awesome! :-) Will Trax be featured in AG?

Kerry

We don't have plans for Trax yet. The problem is space. It's really difficult to find room for everything.

cjr

I think you should feature Octi, that is probably the most interesting game I have ever seen.

Kerry

Yes, we loved Octi. It's fun to play.

MSO_MazeMan

AG?

cjr

Abstract Games, I would think.

chmeee

Abstract Games = AG.

MSO_MazeMan

Sorry... mind spinning.

chmeee

I have the internet abbrev disease. It's IMPORTANT to save those few seconds...:-) thanks for your time and comments Kerry, I gotta go now... cu all later! Hope to be in London this August! :-)

cjr

So do I :)

MSO_Admin

We hope to see you there too!

cjr

Bye Kerry, hoping to get my subscription soon :)

MSO_MazeMan

This has been a fascinating discussion. I'll be mailing mine soon.

Kerry

It's in the mail. Thanks!

MSO_Admin

Come to think of it, has my subscription to you arrived yet, Kerry?

Kerry

Not yet.

MSO_MazeMan

Just apply Chris's money to my subscription when it gets there :-)))))

MSO_Admin

Hum. :-) Do you consider puzzles to be one-player abstract games?

MSO_MazeMan

That's an interesting thought. Some of them certainly are.

MSO_Admin

Modem problems? :-)

Kerry

Thanks for having me. It's been fun.

MSO_Admin

Thanks very much indeed for being here!

MSO_MazeMan

I would say that a puzzle that has only one answer is not a one-player abstract game, but different people would have other opinions.

MSO_Admin

We're glad you enjoyed it.

MSO_MazeMan

Yes, I enjoyed it.

Kerry

I lost you for a minute there.

davidbod

Some puzzles are games, but in general I wouldn't think that they are the same thing.

MSO_MazeMan

Chris asked the question, right as you got booted,

MSO_Admin

Do you consider puzzles to be one-player abstract games?

MSO_MazeMan

Or perhaps if they might be consider an abstract challenge, but some puzzles are definitely concrete challenges.

davidbod

Some puzzles are based on game theory.

Kerry

Games are ongoing puzzles, sometimes with definite solutions.

MSO_Admin

Do you have a favourite puzzle at all, Kerry?

Kerry

I don't really do puzzles much. It's difficult to think of a favorite right now.

MSO_Admin

Time for one last question from the floor...

davidbod

What key developments do you think there will be for abstact games?

MSO_Admin

What developments do you expect in new abstract games in the future?

davidbod

Snap!

Kerry

The big new thing in abstract games in the last fifty years was connection games. I'm really hoping another major theme will develop in the way that connection games did. but I can't predict what it will be.

MSO_Admin

Thanks very much for that answer, Kerry, and for all the answers you've given tonight. It has been an extremely interesting session and we're extremely grateful to you for giving us your time.

MSO_MazeMan

Definitely.

Kerry

Thanks very much for having me. It's been fun.

MSO_Admin

We hope that both the world of abstract games and the world of Abstract Games flourish in the future and wish you well. Our next brain star chat guest is Dan Glimne, Sweden's #1 game designer, with titles such as "Svea Rike" and "DungeonQuest" to his name. Meanwhile, elsewhere on the site, you can play our selection of abstract games online in real time at no charge. You can also sign the petition to celebrate the Century of the Brain and the Millennium of the Mind. Thanks once again to our brain star guest Kerry Handscomb. For MSO Worldwide, this is Chris Dickson signing off!

Kerry

Signing off. Thanks again!