MSO_Admin

Hi Dan! Thanks for turning up.

Dan_Glimne

Hi! Dan Glimne is here, looking forward to the next two hours!

TheMazeMan

Good afternoon.

Dan_Glimne

And good evening from me too.

TheMazeMan

It's only 3 pm here. I enjoy the confusion of times on the Internet.

Dan_Glimne

Good afternoon? Sounds like you are logging in from the Western hemisphere.

TheMazeMan

Nice to meet you, Dan. Yes; Arkansas, USA, but aren't you technically also in the Western Hemisphere? I can't remember where the dividing line is.

Dan_Glimne

Me, I'm sitting outside Stockholm, in Sweden. Technically, the dividing line is the zero meridian, running through Greenwich, London. I'm about a thousand miles into the Eastern hemisphere.

TheMazeMan

I'm John Knoderer, by the way. I design puzzles, so when I heard you designed games, I knew I had to attend.

Dan_Glimne

Nice to "meet" you John! Do you just design puzzles, or games too?

TheMazeMan

Mainly puzzles. Occasionally, I'll make up a simple game as part of a puzzle, for example, but my games have never been the quality of the stuff I see in the stores.

Dan_Glimne

What sort? Intellectual, mechanical, both?

TheMazeMan

Sort of a combination of different types...

Dan_Glimne

I've done the odd intellectual puzzle from time to time, but not any mechanical ones.

TheMazeMan

Word puzzles (I have a word search puzzle that contains 1,950 different words). Mazes; for example, http://www.god.loves.someone.net/dan.html .

Dan_Glimne

Mazes are fun - I have about a dozen books dealing with mazes. What was that Net address?

TheMazeMan

Save it for later - that is a maze that contains your first name. I'm the webmaster for www.MAZES.com. But in spite of my being puzzle oriented, I didn't do well in yesterday's World Puzzle Championship Qualifying test.

Dan_Glimne

Have saved the web address, will check it later. Did you know that Sweden has more mazes (from old times) than any other country?

TheMazeMan

No, I didn't. Guess I'll have to put that on my agenda one of these Augusts. I'm hoping that Chris will point me to some English mazes when I come to London to collect the two pence that he owes me.

Dan_Glimne

...I did not know about the World Puzzle Championship - tell me more about it!

TheMazeMan

The qualifying test was yesterday. The round yesterday was to pick one or members of the national teams for the US, UK, and a few other countries. It was fun for people from other countries. They presented 22 puzzles, gave you 2.5 hours to solve as many as you wished to solve.

MSO_Admin

You can find more information on the World Puzzle Championship at http://www.worldpuzzle.org/, I think

Dan_Glimne

Interesting!

TheMazeMan

I got 65 points but I'm certain Chris beat my score.

MSO_Admin

I'm not :-)

TheMazeMan

In the USA, the fourth member of the USA team will be the one person who gets the BEST score on this test.

Dan_Glimne

The solving was done via the Internet?

TheMazeMan

We submitted our answers by filling in a web page. But all solving was done sitting at (e.g.) a table. I spread out manipulatives at the table in advance so I could move things around.

Dan_Glimne

Interesting! Will check http://www.worldpuzzle.org/ later. How many contestants attended, total? How many countries?

TheMazeMan

I don't know, but I hope they tell us when they tell us how we do later this week. By the way, if Chris didn't tell you, today is "Father's Day" in the USA, so that will affect attendance from over here.

MSO_Admin

It's Father's Day worldwide, I think.

TheMazeMan

I wasn't sure of that part. I think I remember learning it started over here.

Dan_Glimne

Hmmm. In Sweden, Father's Day this year is 12 Nov - always the second Sunday in November.

TheMazeMan

Hallmark's excuse to make people buy greeting cards.

Dan_Glimne

Well, here too - just a different card company.

Dan_Glimne

Welcome! Where (country?) are you logging in from?

ybbol

Good evening from Finland.

Dan_Glimne

Finland - welcome!

TheMazeMan

So, tell me about some of your games, have I seen any of them?

Dan_Glimne

My games? My best-known ones are Svea Rike, Sky Runner and perhaps one-dimensional chess.

MSO_Admin

In this country you're probably best known for DungeonQuest.

TheMazeMan

I've heard of DungeonQuest.

Dan_Glimne

DungeonQuest - yeah, that's right, although it was over ten years ago.

TheMazeMan

One dimensional chess? Sounds intriguing.

ybbol

I have seen one-dimensional chess problems.

Dan_Glimne

There are three or four versions of one-dimensional chess, I believe.

MSO_Admin

So what does the name of the game "Svea Rike" actually mean?

Dan_Glimne

"Svea Rike" (old word) literally means "the realm of the svears"

TheMazeMan

And what is a svear? I think of "svear word"!

Dan_Glimne

Svear is the name for the people who lived in middle Sweden (Stockholm area). "Svear" is a plural word, simply.

MSO_Admin

http://www.chessvariants.com/shape.dir/onedim.html has details of all the one-dimensional chess games that exist.

Dan_Glimne

Is my particular OD Chess version there? My OD chess version is in David Pritchard's Encyclopedia of chess variants, I know that.

MSO_Admin

Yes, it is.

Dan_Glimne

Have to check that web page - some of my games turn up here and there...

MSO_Admin

The setup is White King, Queen, Rook, Bishop, Bishop, Knight, Pawn, four empty squares, Black Pawn, Knight, Bishop, Bishop, Rook, Queen, King. The King moves one or two squares, but moving two it may not jump over a piece. A Rook moves as usual. A Bishop moves an even number of squares (i.e., only on squares of his own color), and jumps over squares of the other color, e.g., when white starts the game with moving his pawn, he can move the next turn the bishop that is most towards the black pieces. The Queen has the combined moves of bishop and rook. A Knight moves two or three squares, and may jump Castling is allowed under the same restrictions as castling in usual chess. The inventor thinks that white can force a win.

Dan_Glimne

Correct - and my single home-made version of the game was coincidentally set up again last week, and is on one of my shelves. I merely have a "sneaky feeling" that white can force a win, but as yet unproved. I haven't played that particular chess invention of mine for about a decade!

MSO_Admin

At some point I'm going to see if Zillions of Games can find a win for one side or the other. It shouldn't be too hard to program in Zillions.

Dan_Glimne

That would be interesting! My one-dimensional chess was invented as an experiment, after my first game of 3D chess. I wanted to see if it was possible to go "down", dimension-wise, instead of up.

ybbol

I wonder if there is a 4-dimensional chess? It would be understood by professors of mathematics only.

Dan_Glimne

Oh yeah!

MSO_Admin

I think I saw chess on a 4x4x4x4 board recently, but I can't find it on chessvariants off-hand...

Dan_Glimne

Where? A commercial variant? I collect chess games.

MSO_Admin

A web page with the rules of the games alone.

ybbol

Is that a four-dimensional board? what did it look like?

Dan_Glimne

Probably several 3D games side by side, with moves permitted between arrays.

MSO_Admin

http://www.chessvariants.com/large.dir/contest/chesseract.html

Dan_Glimne

Will check that one!

MSO_Admin

Very much what you suggest, Dan; It looks like a 4x4 arrangement of 4x4 boards and pieces can move either on the same board or from board to board.

Dan_Glimne

It has been done before - I seem to recall it. Will check one of my books...

MSO_Admin

I look forward to someone inventing five-dimensional chess, just because they can!

TheMazeMan

...but I don't think I'd want to play it!

Dan_Glimne

Page 18 in "A Guide To Fairy Chess" by Anthony Dickins has it. Published in 1971 and a rarity...

MSO_Admin

There's a program which will let you navigate around four-plus-dimensional mazes called "Frood Grid". http://members.tripod.com/~l4795/frood

Dan_Glimne

A lot of web page addresses I am collecting this evening...

TheMazeMan

In the mid-eighties, I woke up from a dream, knowing how to write a computer program to create four dimensional mazes. That same day, I used that method to do my 3D version.

davidbod

The Internet is all very well, but what about the impact of wireless technologies on game components - such as Bluetooth?

Dan_Glimne

Games are games, in principle -- it is just that new technologies make other forms possible. I believe that future technical developments will revolutionize board games. Think of squares with built-in voice chips, for example.

ybbol

That technology is already being misused for cheating.

MSO_Admin

Will we ever get computer games which permit as rich social interactions as board games do?

Dan_Glimne

Once virtual reality becomes better, I believe that we can interact in "worlds" that will be hard to tell from the real thing, which brings me to the movie "The Matrix". Seen it?

Anyway, back to games, or inventing, or the MSO, or all three. Questions, anyone?

TheMazeMan

Will you be at the MSO4, so we can see some of your things?

MSO_Admin

Yes indeed. Dan is Chief Arbiter at the MSO, so I expect he will be there, yes! :-)

Dan_Glimne

Yes, I will be at the MSO4 -- and look forward to seeing you!

TheMazeMan

Fantastic, I look forward to meeting you. (Reminder to self: bring money.)

MSO_Admin

What are you working on at the moment?

Dan_Glimne

In pure games inventing?

Dan_Glimne

Have done three new card games lately, since I've just finished a book on card games. (With ordinary playing cards, that is.)

MSO_Admin

That sounds interesting. Will it be published in English, or Swedish only?

Dan_Glimne

In Swedish, at least for a start; a Swedish publishing house asked me to do it. Playing cards are, by the way, a wonderful medium for games. I am also involved in the coming casinos in Sweden - they recently changed the law to permit casinos being built.

MSO_Admin

Please would you tell us about some of the new playing card games that you have invented?

Dan_Glimne

One of the card games is a political satire: two players, one who wants to raise the taxes, the other wants to lower them. The players represent two well-known political parties here. The tax situation is shown via the club cards, from A (counting 1) to 9. A= 10% taxes, 2 = 20% taxes, 3 = 30% taxes, etc. At the start, the tax level is 50% (shown by five of clubs). The players chooses cards to play against each other in a sort of semi-trick-taking style. Some of the cards are given special functions. Player A wins if the tax level goes up to 90%, player B if it goes down to 10%. Or, at the end of the game, if the tax level is higher or lower than 50%%, the corresponding player wins.

MSO_Admin

Sounds very interesting. There aren't many thematic playing card games out there.

Dan_Glimne

Actually, you can give any theme at all to a card game. As long as the players agree that, let's say, hearts cards represent this and spades that, you have a thematic card game.

MSO_Admin

Most playing card games tend to be played themeless and for score alone, though...?

Dan_Glimne

Yes, most card games are theme-less ones. That's why it is fun to invent thematic card games!

MSO_Admin

I tend to enjoy themed games more than themeless ones so I wholly agree! :-)

On another matter, you are known as one of Europe's foremost experts on poker.

Dan_Glimne

I wouldn't know about that -- though I have written a thick book on the subject, and won tournaments in Las Vegas...

MSO_Admin

I perceive that poker is becoming far more mainstream and higher in the public conscience than ever before.

Dan_Glimne

Yes, poker has become very much a socially acceptable game in the past decade.

MSO_Admin

Ladbrokes' in the UK have made noises about promoting a million-pound hold'em tournament in the style of the Binnion's Horseshoe World Series of Poker.

Dan_Glimne

Also, the unique thing about poker is that it is not a card game in the strict sense, but a game about money management.

MSO_Admin

How best, would you say, that people who don't like playing games for money can experience poker's unique thrills?

Dan_Glimne

You can't. The unique thing about poker IS that it is being played for, and by, something of value. In order for losses and wins to be "felt", they must MEAN something to you as a person, not just being an abstract points score.

MSO_Admin

What's the lowest stake that poker is worth playing for?

Dan_Glimne

Lowest? I'd rather say that the suitable level of stakes is such that a loss starts to become irritating, at least...

MSO_Admin

Or can you suggest any non-monetary stakes that might be worth playing for?

Dan_Glimne

The only acceptable non-monetary stakes in poker are sex. There, I've said it...

MSO_Admin

!! Can we quote you on that?

Dan_Glimne

Yes, you can...

MSO_Admin

That will make a lovely headline! "The only acceptable non-monetary stakes in poker are sex" - Dan Glimne. Read more!

Dan_Glimne

...which brings me to quote the writer Alan Williams: "Sex is OK, but poker lasts longer..."

MSO_Admin

It's not often that we start to discuss sexual politics in MSO star guest interview chat sessions!

Dan_Glimne

Well, sex and poker is a pretty apolitical subject...

MSO_Admin

Can there be another way to imbue a game with permanent out-of-game effects that will be felt after the game has been completed other than playing for stakes?

Dan_Glimne

Out-of-game effects? Depends on the individual, I guess. They can, of course, include the lingering intellectual satisfaction of having done the absolutely right thing!

MSO_Admin

You are also associated with The Game Designer Association. What are you doing for that these days?

Dan_Glimne

There is a large and quite professionally-run German organisation for games inventors, the SAZ, meaning the Spiele-Autoren Zunft, the Games Inventors' Guild.

TheMazeMan

It sounds like an interesting association. I wish I were nearer things like that, but I'm way off in the boondocks.

MSO_Admin

You are listed as an Advisory Councillor in the SAZ. I'm curious to know what the biggest issues of the day within it are.

Dan_Glimne

The biggest issues of the day, or rather issue, is to hammer out a sort of "basic" contract with the games publishing companies. This contract would guarantee certain rights, creation-wise, not just the money issue. In the US or to some extent the UK, games inventors are not seen as true creators, like writers and composers. In Continental, Europe, however, this has been the case now for some two decades. I mean, do you go into the bookstore to get a Stephen King book, or a Doubleday book?

MSO_Admin

Was there much difference between the way your games are treated when you were working for AB Alga than when you are working now as a freelancer?

Dan_Glimne

When I was at Alga, any games inventions I did (except small stuff like paper-and-pencil games and card games) was the property of Alga. These days, however, I am in a way a "business man" like a writer for example. It means I contact (or am contacted by, in some cases) games companies, and try to sell them my games or books. I have been a freelancer now since 1989, and let me tell you, it means having a roller-coaster economy...

MSO_Admin

So what can be done to increase the public perception of games inventors throughout the English speaking world?

Dan_Glimne

The public perception of games? Number one, start treating them like the cultural artifacts they are. Is it only in the last few decades that acheologists and other people have realized that games say just as much about their culture as books, or other artefacts. A board game does not exist in a vacuum - it reflects social values, morality, religion... in short, the society in which it was created.

MSO_Admin

Which games designers around the world today do you admire most?

Dan_Glimne

Reiner Knizia is the first name that springs to mind, but there are many other good ones: David Parlett, Michael Gray, Alan Moon, Dirk Henn, Alex Randolph, Sid Sackson - the real veterans and heroes... Trouble is, so few people (outside Germany, where games ARE a big thing) know those names. Quick quiz: Mordechai Meirovitz, Alfred Butts, Paul Toyne... Which games?

MSO_Admin

Butts invented Scrabble.

Dan_Glimne

Scrabble and Butts, right. How about Merle Robbins?

MSO_Admin

I'll have to confess that I've just looked up "Merle Robbins" in a search engine and found no games coming up as results.

Dan_Glimne

Answers: Meirovitz - Mastermind, Toyne - Balderdash, Robbins - UNO.

MSO_Admin

All famous games indeed. I should certainly have remembered the Mastermind inventor at the very least.

ybbol

Which game is that?

Dan_Glimne

Are you kidding... you do not know the game Mastermind?

MSO_Admin

I'm familiar with the game, but not the game's inventor. (shame)

Dan_Glimne

See? There are scores of famous games, but they are so rarely connected to their inventors. Anyone can list composers, artists and writers, but try to list ten games inventors...

MSO_Admin

Mordechai Meirovitz is a fairly distinctive sort of name, too.

Dan_Glimne

Israeli electrical engineer who hit the jackpot with his invention in the early 1970's.

ybbol

"Games" may have other functions than measuring skills.

Dan_Glimne

All games measure some sort of skill -- intellectual, manual...

ybbol

How do you define a game?

Dan_Glimne

Defining a game? Far greater minds than mine have been stumped by that one. My own favourite: A process where people start off equal and wind up unequal.

ybbol

But are there games which do not convert the measures to put players in order?

Dan_Glimne

Some sort of order is usually the rule at the end of a game - the smartest, or fastest, or luckiest...

ybbol

How does one know if something one invents is a game or something else?

Dan_Glimne

If it produces either a winner or a loser, it is usually a game...

ybbol

I am especially interested in finding a "game" which does not look for winners - do I have to invent one? :)

Dan_Glimne

"The other kind" is "result-negative" games, where the object is to appoint a loser (Old Maid, for example).

MSO_Admin

Or your invention "Skitgubbe", designed to find who should pay for the next round of drinks!

Dan_Glimne

Regrettably, NOT my invention!

MSO_Admin

Sorry - my confusion.

Dan_Glimne

Skitgubbe is a traditional three-handed card game, arguably the most common three-hander in Sweden, though actually it is probably of Finnish origin, where it is known as Myllymatti. As for drinking game, I have invented Beer Square.

ybbol

Are there games that do not have winners or loosers but require cooperation?

Dan_Glimne

Yes, when you play as a team against the system. Boring for most people. Who would like to watch the Olympics if people did not compete against each other?

MSO_Admin

Would you rather play your one of your favourite games with people who you don't know or a game you don't particularly care for with your regular gaming group?

Dan_Glimne

The best satisfaction comes from playing a game with friends, and one which everyone knows VERY well and likes. Nothing like hold'em or seven stud with your regular poker buddies...

Speaking of the MSO4, I hear that it is definitely on now, after some initial trouble concerning the sponsors.

MSO_Admin

Absolutely!

Dan_Glimne

GREAT!

MSO_Admin

We're very pleased to confirm it!

Dan_Glimne

Which games are new for this year's MSO?

MSO_Admin

I believe Settlers of Catan board game, Acquire and Renju - possibly others.

Dan_Glimne

Renju is a very welcome addition, a classical mind game.

MSO_Admin

Which games would you like to see added to the MSO?

Dan_Glimne

Games added to the MSO? I'll pass it on to the audience, but Monopoly comes to mind. It is not to be under-estimated, especially as a negotiating-game - and of course I'd like to see the British powers-that-be change their minds and allow cash prizes in the MSO poker tournaments!

MSO_Admin

Perhaps it might be more practical to come to some agreements with an existing casino and hold MSO-branded poker tournaments with prizes there.

Dan_Glimne

If that would possible, certainly, but would the authorities allow "off-pemises" gambling? (Not that poker is gambling in the long run, mind you, it is a supreme test of skill and mind over cards...)

MSO_Admin

I doubt it - potential entrants would have to register as casino members as normal.

Dan_Glimne

If so, that should be worth looking into. Perhaps the Victoria or Palm Beach would throw in a little cash incentive too as sponsors...

MSO_Admin

Please tell us a little more about how the casinos in Sweden will be organising poker tournaments and cash games.

Dan_Glimne

Swedish casinos: As yet poker has not been confirmed, but my inside info tells me that the Stockholm casino (when it opens in late 2001 or early 2002) will have a poker room. This will be as an experiment, and if enough people come to play it will of course be made into a permanent fixture. Otherwise, it will be a regular card room -- cash games most evenings, weekend tournaments, and occasionally large tournaments.

MSO_Admin

So will the casino be based around the traditional casino pursuits: craps, Blackjack, roulette, fruit machines and so on?

Dan_Glimne

Yeah, the mainstay of the Swedish casinos will be the usual fare -- BJ, punto banco, sic bo, roulette, slots. No craps, though, just sic bo. Craps is just about completely unknown in Sweden.

MSO_Admin

will dig through his copy of Knizia's "Dice Games Properly Explained" for details of sic bo.

Dan_Glimne

Sic bo: three dice are rolled, and the customers can bet beforehand on a variety of outcomes. Such as the total, a double appearing, a specified triplet, or a particular combination appearing like 5-2, and so on. Altogether, there are about 50 possible wagers on the sic bo table. The casino's advantage in sic bo varies widely, from less than 3% to over 30%!

MSO_Admin

http://www.casinorama.com/sicbo.html has a list of bets and payoffs.

Dan_Glimne

Smart gambling ALWAYS means finding the games and wagers with the lowest house advantages, and betting. It is a pretty mindless betting game. I much prefer the action of BJ, or possibly punto banco in which the house advantage is not much over 1%. Also, in BJ you get to handle the cards. In sic bo, the dealer rolls the dice inside a sealed container. The physical attraction of handling games equipment is actually a part of the attraction of playing.

MSO_Admin

Have decisions been taken on what sort of BJ games (with regard to Insurance, doubling down, splitting pairs, house action on 16s etc.) will be offered in Stockholm's casino?

Dan_Glimne

It will be pretty ordinary internatíonal BJ as for doubling down and splitting - not the liberal Strip Rules like in Las Vegas, unfortunately, but those result from competition in a free market... I haven't seen all the details yet, but when the first Swedish casino (since 1912!!) opens around Dec 1st, 2000, it will all be decided. BJ is one of those casino games where knowledge of tactics pays off.

MSO_Admin

Why don't casinos spend more time devising new gambling games that are as entertaining to play as most modern board games and mind sports? Have you ever spent time devising such gambling games at all?

Dan_Glimne

Any game can be played for money, but no - I haven't spent time trying to come up with a "real gambling game".

MSO_Admin

Have you ever invented any primarily physical games, or do you focus exclusively on mind sports?

Dan_Glimne

I can't offhand think of any physical game inventions I have done, except variants of croquet and that sort of stuff...

Well, what's next? Any more questions on games in general? What do you prefer playing, all you chat members out there?

Petarius

I like RPGs.

Mouse

Backgammon is my game.

GR

Backgammon and scrabble are my games.

ybbol

Chess.

TheMazeMan

What advice can you give people hoping to become game designers?

Dan_Glimne

Advice? Work hard, be creative, blabla... Sorry if I sound callous, but the hardest thing is to actually get games companies to even look at your inventions.

ybbol

You can publish a new game on the Internet.

Dan_Glimne

Publishing new games on the Internet is unfortunately not (as yet) a way to make money, though it might be intellectually satisfying.

Petarius

What do you mean by inventions? Do you mean story ideas?

Dan_Glimne

No - inventions are game mechanisms, the "math + decisions" driving the game along.

GR

I think there are too many games based on TV shows, game shows and films - ie, the boardgame came after the TV version. Nine times out of ten they are worse in board format... for instance, take the "FRIENDS" game or the "Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?" game.

Dan_Glimne

Yes, there are a lot of middling-to-poor quality games based on TV stuff.

Petarius

I guess i'm more interested in writing up the stories and characer design, but if I were to make a game based on my ideas I'd want to be in the directors chair.

Dan_Glimne

When you say stories and character design, you are already into highly thematic games like role-playing games?

Petarius

I like those the best.

Dan_Glimne

Most games exist at a lower level of "thematics", and then the mechanism, or combination of mechanisms, driving the game becomes much more important.

GR

Well - the orginal MUDs are the basis of many of todays RPGs. Did any of the MUD creators get dredit or are the RPGs invented by totally different people?

MSO_Admin

Richard Bartle, I think, created the original MUD.

GR

I remember playing a game called "adventure" on an old DEC20 which was near enough the original MUD (not a MUD, as such, because it wasn't mulitplayer though). Think it came out very soon after Maze's Star Trek. It was very pure - text only with about ten commands.

Dan_Glimne

RPG games are a form of theatre - what you do is that you add winning and losing, in the wide sense.

Petarius

Yeah, I sort of think of it like an interactive story to some degree.

Dan_Glimne

RPG games were invented around 1970, it is generally considered. Think of RPG games another fifty years down the line, when you put a helmet on your head and enter some stunning virtual reality world...

ybbol

That will be in ten years.

Petarius

That will be cool - but to make the genre more interesting a lot of designers are looking into the multiplayer aspects, such as online RPGs, I think that will lead us to a new direction.

Dan_Glimne

I think that half a century from now, there will be (illegal) games that you actually risk your life in, for monetary rewards or whatever.

GR

Cool!

Dan_Glimne

Cool? Not quite the word I would use...

GR

Risk taker here!

Mouse

Doesn't sound like much fun.

Petarius

How can you risk your life in a game though?

Dan_Glimne

OK, but I mean computer games, where you are hooked up into a machine that will control heart frequency, breathing etc.

ybbol

That sort of game exists already - it was in one 007 movie...

GR

...in Never Say Never Again.

MSO_Admin

Do you think that "The Running Man" was any more than science fiction?

Dan_Glimne

I'll answer that in the year 2050...

MSO_Admin

Would you like to be involved in designing such a game!?

Dan_Glimne

No. I draw the line at that.

TheMazeMan

I agree. I enjoy life.

Petarius

But where do you have the proof to suggest that games are heading in that direction?

TheMazeMan

Logic and advances in methods. Logic indicates that SOME people will take the risk, they like the adrenalin rush.

Dan_Glimne

The answer lies in man's use of new technology - dynamite, biotech stuff, whatever.

Petarius

But I mean playing a game and risking you life for money just seems too extreme. I mean, poker hasn't changed in any way.

TheMazeMan

Science already provides the methods.

Dan_Glimne

There will always be people reaching for the extreme. Not all games will change, of course, but new hi-tech means new games.

MSO_Admin

I wonder if we could turn bungee jumping into a game somehow? :-)

Dan_Glimne

Bungee jumping? Sure, whoever comes closest to the ground without hitting wins.

GR

:-)

TheMazeMan

Sounds like shuffleboard.

Petarius

That's a pretty cynical way to look at things.

TheMazeMan

I suspect that once someone introduces this kind of extreme, we'll find it relegated to back rooms and shunned by the majority. (For example, it's hard to find where the cockfights are anymore, most people disagree with them).

Dan_Glimne

Yes - those games where you risk life and limb will surely be illegal in any civilized country.

Mouse

enjoys challenging yet friendly board games... not a big risk taker.

TheMazeMan

Same here. I enjoy the play, but not the risks.

Mouse

Exactly.

Petarius

But stuff like that goes out of style, like playing chicken off the edge of a cliff.

TheMazeMan

True, very true. you don't see high school students playing chicken anymore.

Dan_Glimne

The main attraction in board games is of course the intellectual challenge, not to mention the social interaction.

MSO_Admin

So why is it OK to risk assets (eg money) if not limbs or life?

TheMazeMan

You can always earn money back. Can you earn your life back?

Dan_Glimne

In ANY form of human activity you will see extreme forms: driving, eating, making physical love...

GR

I bet Maze would be the one that buys all the extra property in Monopoly just to prolong the game!

TheMazeMan

I've had times that I made deliberately crazy deals just to make the game go longer.

Petarius

Hah!

GR

((grins))

Petarius

That's fun!

Mouse

lol

Dan_Glimne

Seems we've all played Monopoly here...

TheMazeMan

My stepson used to get mad at me when I'd make a deal that let his sister stay in the game, until he figured out that the game went longer as a result.

Petarius

I've done that once, but accidentally screwed myself over!

TheMazeMan

I may have lost that particular game, but in my case, I play for the playing, not necessarily to win.

GR

Me too.

Petarius

True. I guess the true satisfaction comes from the social interaction as well as just the enjoyment of the game played.

MSO_Admin

I play for fun, but I find it more fun when I win. (That said, I'd rather lose a really entertaining game than win a dull one...)

Dan_Glimne

Usually I too prefer to play for the sake of the game, but at the same time I also always strive to win (in a gentlemanly fashion) and expect everyone else to do the same.

TheMazeMan

I keep sets of Monopoly, cribbage, chinese checkers, and a few other games down at the "general store" just to be able to enjoy them when I can.

Petarius

But you also have to consider with all games, comes competition, and humans - as a species - don't like to lose.

Dan_Glimne

At the same time, you learn to lose via games, and all of us will be losers in one situation or another - we don't get that job, our girlfriend prefers someone else, etc.

Mouse

Some people are more competitive than others.

GR

Have you ever noticed that men are better losers than women - or is that a sweeping misstatement?

Mouse

Very - a sexist comment :o)

Dan_Glimne

I don't know if men are better losers - but men play more than women, and it is part of (most) men's culture to lose graciously and congratulate the opponent.

MSO_Admin

OK, questions for Dan Glimne, please: Sweden's foremost game designer, poker expert, author and more?

Dan_Glimne

Thanks for those kind words. Well, anyone?

GR

OK... if i had an idea for a game who would I contact first?

Dan_Glimne

Contact an agent - Anjar in New York, Seven Towns in London, Bar-David in Tel-Aviv...

GR

How far down the creative/designing stage would i have to be?

Dan_Glimne

When you contact an agent, you should have a complete hand-made prototype, rules and all, quite playable.

ybbol

How many game inventors are there in Sweden and other Nordic countries?

Dan_Glimne

There are very few games inventors in Sweden (or the other Nordic countries). As far as I know, I am the only full-time one.

MSO_Admin

Do you regard yourself more as a game designer, an author or a game designer who often finds it convenient to publish his games in books?

Dan_Glimne

Money-wise, for the second year running, I made slightly more money last year out of writing than out of games royalties, so I guess that makes me a writer mostly...

GR

Do you tend to spend time thinking of new games/ideas (ie allotted time) or do the ideas just hit you inspirationally?

Dan_Glimne

I often (well reasonably often) get germs of ideas for games, but it always takes hard work to think the whole thing through and actually complete a game.

Mouse

Are you working on anything new at the present time?

Dan_Glimne

Mouse; yes, I am working on two new board games presently.

Mouse

Oh wonderful - will they make it to the USA?

Dan_Glimne

I don't know if they will make it to the USA, but my recent game Sky Runner did...

MSO_Admin

Can you tell us more about them, Dan, or do we have to wait for the finished products?

Dan_Glimne

I am sorry; I can't go into details about my game projects...

MSO_Admin

Fair enough. Reiner Knizia is similarly professional about his forthcoming releases - it's very frustrating to an eager fan!

ybbol

Does it ever happen that one invents a game and afterwards someone notices that it was already invented in 1958?

Dan_Glimne

Similarities will occur. The poet and writer Goethe said: "Everything has been thought of before, the trick is to think of it again"...

GR

I guess patents are a big part of the game design world.

Dan_Glimne

Patents - you cannot patent a game as an abstract mechanism. Only physical things can be patented, though the law was different half a century ago.

Petarius

My dilemma is that I like to write out the stories, but could I also become a director because I came up with the ideas and how I want them to fit, or will that be a problem?

Dan_Glimne

Petarius, if you want to write RPG material, why don't you contact a suitable publisher? Most of them are always looking for new material.

Petarius

I will - but I have such a big idea, I mean the way it's, the story spans a long time, a saga.

Dan_Glimne

So did Lord of the Rings, but Tolkien got it finished.

Petarius

But that's a book.

GR

(And a film soon!)

MSO_Admin

(And a game not long after the film!)

Petarius

I'd like to turn this into a game, yet I know game publishers are looking for money, and I dont want a game series to go unfinished.

MSO_Admin

It is past the appointed finishing time, so we will reluctantly have to let Dan Glimne return to the Real World. I'm happy to carry this on as long as Dan is, but he is a very busy gentleman: too many books and games to write, too many hands of poker to play!

Dan_Glimne

Thanks, everyone -- I enjoyed this!

Petarius

Bye, Dan! You rule!

Mouse

Nice meeting you!

GR

Bye!

Dan_Glimne

Thanks! (Bows low)

ybbol

Bye!

MSO_Admin

Thank you very much indeed for your time and thoughts, Dan. We have all enjoyed it very much indeed and have covered some excellent topics. This particular session will last long in my memory.

Dan_Glimne

Bye. Keep gaming!

Petarius

Try and stop me!

MSO_Admin

We certainly _will_ keep gaming!

Dan_Glimne

OK, am logging out, it's past midnight here. See you at MSO4!!

MSO_Admin

For instance, we can play games online free at the MSO site and we have recently added Go and Backgammon to the list of games we offer.

GR

Nice plug...

MSO_Admin

Thanks again to Dan Glimne. We look forward to seeing him at the Mind Sports Olympiad where he will act as Chief Arbiter.

Petarius

Nice promoting!

MSO_Admin

Elsewhere on our site, the $500 creative thinking contest continues apace and we will have more programming and trivia cash prize contests in the coming weeks. The message boards carry on strong too...

GR

God, Chris... do you have an auto-commercial/plug key?

MSO_Admin

...please sign the petition for the Millennium of the Mind and the Century of the Brain. For MSO Worldwide...

Petarius

Too much promoting - I can't take it!

MSO_Admin

...this is Chris Dickson, uncontrollably laughing at my own "subtlety"...

Petarius

My brain will explode!

MSO_Admin

...and signing out. Good night!